Wednesday, January 9, 2008

Why Shawn Marion Is Too Good For The Suns

Basketbawful unleashed a rather in-depth criticism of the Suns that touches on something I've been saying for months.

Homeys can't rebound worth a damn.

Oliver notes in his groundbreaking book that rebounding isn't the most important factor for a team. There are other stats that are way more important. Like shooting percentage. Funny how putting the ball in the hole helps teams wins, I know. But what it does mention is that it's more important defensively to get rebounds.

Huh?

My interpretation of this is that it doesn't necessarily mean that if you get a ton of offensive rebounds you'll win more often, or if you get tons of defensive rebounds you will (though that helps because it means your opponent is shooting crappy).

It means that you need to keep the other team from getting offensive rebounds.

Take the perfect microcosm of the Suns problems, the San Antonio Spurs series from last season. They were killed on offensive rebounds. It's great if you can force the Spurs into a bad shot, but it doesn't mean anything if Fabricio freaking Oberto is creating another chance for them 12 to 15 times a game. That killed them. And it's still killing them.

Knickerblogger's nifty stats page shows the offensive rebound % allowed by the defenses of all teams. The best? The San Antonio Spurs and Boston Celtics, arguably the two best teams in the league. The worst? The Golden State Warriors and the Phoenix Suns. No big deal right? They're all playoff teams.

The problem is that Phoenix is already a playoff team. They're aiming for one thing. A championship.

Now, of course, the effect has to have something to do with the breakneck styles of the Warriors and Suns. But is it really impossible to run and box out at the same time?

The fact is that if the Suns want to get to the Championship and win, they're going to have to get tough inside. And part of that is not letting the other team have multiple chances at scoring.

How does this relate to Shawn Marion?



Shawn Marion is one of my favorite players in the league. He's played brilliantly his entire career. I love the way he fills up the stat sheet. I think he's a tremendous one-on-one defender. I think he plays with passion and precision. And the man can dunk like the Thunder Gods.

Here's the problem. He's too good for the Suns. The Suns would be improved by getting multiple players that possess individual skills Marion possesses instead of Marion by himself. It's addition by division, even if the remainder is marginal.

Let's break it down.

Scoring. Matrix is averaging 16.2 ppg. He's been fantastic, coming up with big buckets in big games. Marion can shoot threes (with his funky shot), drive the lane, pull up for a baseline jumper, or work the post. He's extremely versatile.

But is scoring really what the Suns lack? For starters, the Suns lead the league in scoring. It's pretty clear they can shoot the rock. Second, if Marion weren't there, is there any doubt that at least some of his scoring would be replaced by a motivated Amare, Grant Hill, and Barbosa? They three possess the scoring options Matrix provides, just not in one easy to use awesome combination. If you factor in the points from any potential trade pieces, it becomes negligible. Let's say the Suns get two players for Marion. And let's say they don't play fantastic, they only average about 4 and 6 points a game respectively. That's ten. Are you saying Amare, Barbosa, Hill, Bell, and Nash can't fill in 6 more points a night?

Rebounding. Here's the big hurt. Marion is averaging 10.1 boards a game. That's pretty damn good for a small forward playing power forward most nights. And Marion definitely has a nose for the ball. He plays hard defensively and crashes boards. But he's not big enough to get down low and really get his hands dirty. He tries. That's the thing. He battles. But he's simply not big enough to box out the big meaty dump trucks some teams keep down low. As good as he is, the same rebounding position he takes up could be filled by Grant Hill or Boris Diaw, depending on position. But Diaw sucks this year, right? Absolutely. But let's say we get the above mentioned two players only for Marion. The key player in any trade would be a true PF, which Marion is not. Let's say that he's good, but not great, again, for the Suns. He only gets 6 rebounds a game. So Amare Stoudamire, Boris Diaw, and Brian Skinner can't pick up 4 more rebounds? 4? Between them? That's all you need for it to be negligible. Now, let's say the player actually produces 8 boards. You're almost certainly going to get positive production, plus you're going to be able to send a message down low, depending on the right player.

Assists. Matrix is only dropping 2.1 dimes this season. Nab a guard and a power forward for him, and call it a day. Nash can get one more, and lord knows Amare could work on his passing. Even Diaw's only positive contribution has been assists. So no hard break there.

Blocks. Marion is rejecting 2.4 per game this season. Wow. That's hard to replace, honestly. Shot-blockers are in short supply. If your big man you get back in return nabs 1 a game, though, you're halfway home. If the player adds any defensive grit, you've got a wash, essentially. You're going to lose some battles, it is Shawn Marion after all.

Defense. Hear me out. Marion is undoubtedly a huge asset because of his versatility. He can guard power forwards in the block (to a degree), and small forwards at the wing (to better degree). Here's the issue. The Suns don't need wing defense. They have Raja Bell. And they have Grant Hill who has been surprisingly deft at defense this season, particularly against slasher small forwards like Manu who kill them. They need help down low. And not just "okay" help. They need someone that can go up against Duncan, Dirk, Howard, Chandler and make them work. I'm not saying shut down Duncan, that's impossible. I'm saying make him work for his 30 and 15. Don't make it a formality. Because with Amare, that's what it is. I love STAT's game and his upside. But the man can't guard in the post, with any consistency. He'll have a great series followed by getting roasted and then getting in foul trouble. With Marion, you're getting capable but not imposing. The Suns need imposing. Throw in a guard that can play defense, which neither Nash nor Barbosa can, and you've got addition by division.

You're not looking to get equal value back for Shawn Marion. You're not going to be able to. But you can get the assets you need more, and divide the remainder by your already stacked team.

Now, finding that kind of trading combination may be impossible. I say never say never, because there are remarkably stupid GM's out there, and anything's possible. But Marion is going to be an All-Star regardless of where he goes. And if the Suns can improve in the areas they lack, they can jump to definite contender from possible contender, which is where they are now.

The other option is just to adjust coaching, try and get Diaw to become more physical, have Brian Skinner up his basketball IQ by about a hundred points and develop a mid-range J, and hope Barbosa can put on 15 pounds.

It's bizarre to remark about these things for a team that's leading the Western Conference. We still think the Suns are an amazing team, the most fun to watch, certainly, and a legitimate title contender. But the Suns know they don't have what it takes to win the title right now, and that's what's causing the dissension. Something's gotta give.

Now watch them go on a 15 game win-streak.

They do face Indiana, which we cover in our daily 15 Footer today.

15 comments:

Dave said...

Frankly, not getting full value for Marion isn't the end of the world. He wants out, and he comes with a hefty price tag. Go ahead and deal him for one of the role-players. You'll have cfash on hand for future deals, a better attitude in the locker room.

I think--no, I know--people forget that it's not all about getting equal value. Well, it is about value, but not about stats, marketing, or the salary. It's about what makes your team better. It's the same reason the Pacers need to deal O'Neal. He can't carry the team, and they simply peform worse with him active than inactive. Not only does the team's record (and I use the term loosely) reflect that, but everyone's individual stats on the team goes down like a Pacer's chauffer with a bullet wound.

Wild Yams said...

OK, you really want to put this theory to the test? I guarantee you're not going to like this trade possibility, but this does fulfill virtually everything you're saying the Suns should try to get for Marion. Lets say the Suns trade Marion to the Lakers for Kwame Brown, Vlad Radmanovic and Jordan Farmar (according to ESPN's trade checker, this works).

The Suns acquire Kwame, an overpriced offensive black hole, but a guy who is legitimately a very good post defender who can get rebounds and play guys like Duncan one on one (not stop him, of course, but play him so as not to require a double-team). The Suns also get Radmanovic, a tall outside-shooting specialist who would presumably fit in well with the Suns and help to fill in Marion's missed outside shooting at the SF/PF spot (Vlad plays both spots for the Lakers currently). Finally the Suns get Jordan Farmar, a real good young PG prospect who is a great outside shooter and who would be able to give Nash a lot of rest on the bench when he needs it.

The Lakers do this because with Bynum at center they don't really need Kwame that badly, losing Farmar doesn't hurt that bad because Fisher is the starting PG and the Lakers have another good PG prospect in Javaris Crittendon to take Farmar's minutes. Radmanovic is underused on the Lakers anyway, and with Marion taking over the starting SF spot the Lakers won't care at all that he's gone. The added benefit salary-wise for the Suns is that they don't have to deal with Marion's contract demands this summer, Kwame Brown's $9m contract expires at the end of the year and Farmar is on the rookie scale contract for another couple years.

No way do the Suns want to do a trade like this, namely because of how much it would help the Lakers, but even if you took that part out of it, do you really think that the Suns would be better after that trade?

Hardwood Paroxysm said...

Wow, Kwame Brown. While technically he can be described the way you did, it's a pretty big stretch. And you're right, there's no way they make that trade to help the Lakers. I also think Farmar is out of the question for them, he's played too well.

But...

When you throw in Radmanovick, who can be the open three shooter they've been missing this year with Bell struggling from the arc, and the fact that this is a team that made Tim Thomas look like a valuable edition to the team, then yeah.

I think this current team is good enough to win a championship. But it would take players making massive jumps in areas they have not shown the capability. (Say "hi" Boris Diaw."

I'm not sure if there's a good combination out there. In fact, I'm pretty sure they're not. Bu the fact remains that if there is an area that is deceptively an issue, it's that Shawn's too good at areas the Suns don't need him to be as good at.

Also, bear in mind, that if Steve Nash read this, he'd kick me in the nuts and then call me an idiot. He loves Marion's game more than anybody.

Farfa said...

I don't. But only because you put the dubious Kwame on the block. Problem is, Mike D will never play him more than 15 minutes a night, and, honestly, that is not what you need.
The real issue with this team (and the thing that' going to kill them in March-April - not to say in May) is that they are not happy to play together anymore... You have to bring players with a team-first mindset. Then, you can win.
Obviously, if Mr. Sarver hadn't sold out every single draft pick his team made in the last two years, maybe we wouldn't be talking about this.
Now I will try the ESPN Trade Machine for a trade that could be the one Little Stevie Kerr needs :D

Farfa said...

I love this one!

Hold tight:

Shawn Marion and Marcus Banks for Theo Ratliff and Antoine Walker.

I might be crazy, but I think both teams could do it.
Minnesota would get a player who turns its rebuilding process the other way around... Since a starting five like this: Foye-McCants-Brewer-Marion-Jefferson would be so much fun to watch! I know, Minny would have too many ballhandlers and all of them would be from "so-so" to "utterly ugly". But that could be adjusted with another trade, say Marko Jaric and Bassy Telfair to Miami for Jason Williams.
On the other hand, Phoenix would get an intimidating big man (whose contract expires by the end of the year) and the mighty Antoine Walker who, by all means, is a former NBA champion, where nobody else on this freaking team is. Getcha.

Anonymous said...

The only deal that I can see working for the Suns is a Shawn Marion for Jermaine Oneal deal. I would like this deal for the Suns because Jermaine is a very good rebounder and defender. He doesn't score that much these days (13ppg) but that would allow Stoudemire to be the dominant front court scorer that he wants to be. I believe that Oneal would be able to better handle Duncan in the Playoffs than Skinner or Stoudemire. Also, 13ppg isn't a large dropoff from what Marion is getting. The only problem for this is that this deal doesn't work for the Pacers who would have a logjam at the SF with Granger and Stoudemire.

The second best way to work this out would be a trade of Stoudemire for say Foster and Granger. Foster is very active in rebounds and is a capable defender. Granger is a very athletic player with a lot of skills in common with Marion. Of course, the only problem with this is if the Pacers would go for it.

As a third option, they could trade Marion for a Joakim Noah and a Kirk Heinrich. The only problem with this is that Noah is too young to count on to be the primary low post defender on a championship team going against the likes of Duncan/Boozer/West/etc in the playoffs. That would be a daunting task for a rookie. Also, who knows if Paxson does a deal like this because it in no way addresses their low post needs and they already have Deng at SF.

A last possibility would be to trade Marion for someone like Tyson Chandler whose strength is exactly what the Suns are missing (i.e. low post defense and rebounding from the 5) and other players might be happier with him on board as they would get more shots per game. Ultimately, I also don't know if New Orleans would go for something like this.

A remotely last possibility would be a trade with our good old pals, the Clippers or Knicks. A David Lee and next years top 3 protected pick along with a large contract to make the deal work within salary trade restrictions for Marion sounds doable. Chris Kaman and say Corey Maggette for Marion and Barbosa might also work.

Ultimately, I don't think a deal that would work for the Suns would be hard to find since Marion is an All-Star and they are basically looking for interior hustle/defense/rebounding and not necessarily an All-Star Center which is the most valued type of players in this league (unless your name is Lebron/Bryant/Wade).

Anonymous said...

Sorry, got a couple of names confused. Here is the correct post:

The only deal that I can see working for the Suns is a Shawn Marion for Jermaine Oneal deal. I would like this deal for the Suns because Jermaine is a very good rebounder and defender. He doesn't score that much these days (13ppg) but that would allow Stoudemire to be the dominant front court scorer that he wants to be. I believe that Oneal would be able to better handle Duncan in the Playoffs than Skinner or Stoudemire. Also, 13ppg isn't a large dropoff from what Marion is getting. The only problem for this is that this deal doesn't work for the Pacers who would have a logjam at the SF with Granger and Marion.

The second best way to work this out would be a trade of Marion for say Foster and Granger. Foster is very active in rebounds and is a capable defender. Granger is a very athletic player with a lot of skills in common with Marion. Of course, the only problem with this is if the Pacers would go for it.

As a third option, they could trade Marion for a Joakim Noah and a Kirk Heinrich. The only problem with this is that Noah is too young to count on to be the primary low post defender on a championship team going against the likes of Duncan/Boozer/West/etc in the playoffs. That would be a daunting task for a rookie. Also, who knows if Paxson does a deal like this because it in no way addresses their low post needs and they already have Deng at SF.

A last possibility would be to trade Marion for someone like Tyson Chandler whose strength is exactly what the Suns are missing (i.e. low post defense and rebounding from the 5) and other players might be happier with him on board as they would get more shots per game. Ultimately, I also don't know if New Orleans would go for something like this.

A remotely last possibility would be a trade with our good old pals, the Clippers or Knicks. A David Lee and next years top 3 protected pick along with a large contract to make the deal work within salary trade restrictions for Marion sounds doable. Chris Kaman and say Corey Maggette for Marion and Barbosa might also work.

Ultimately, I don't think a deal that would work for the Suns would be hard to find since Marion is an All-Star and they are basically looking for interior hustle/defense/rebounding and not necessarily an All-Star Center which is the most valued type of players in this league (unless your name is Lebron/Bryant/Wade).

Anonymous said...

Marion is sick during the regular season and puts up monster numbers, problem is he ALWAYS disappears in the playoffs. He can have big games but hes always hurt by the fact that he can't create his own shot with any consistency. He mostly scores a lot off passes from nash. As a defender, it makes it easy to guard him because you know hes either going to shoot a 3 or drive. He can't pull and shoot jumpers because of his gay little 2 handed shot. I've been saying this for 3 years, trade him. If you get an all star in return their playoff chances immediately go up because Marion is weak in a seven game series. And as some people have said, missing his number wont hurt them at all when you have such a stacked team. TRADE HIS ASS!

Boir dWOW said...

i dont want to call any of you stupid just nieve. you dont trade marion EVER. When he plays in the games that is the basketball part of it and the chemistry is still coming together this season, but in the off season that is the business side of it. Dont forget that this is his job why not ask of a raise or say you want to go somewhere else for more money and a better job tittle at a worse company, but you know when the season starts he in on the team 100%. And i dont give a shit about the ESPN's trade checker. the only trade that would have made sense was K.G. now that that is gone Coach D just has to tweak the rotaion till he gets it right. Good thing he has around 45 games to do it

ThoopGuy said...

Just so you know, Francisco Elson, Fabricio Umberto, or Fabulous Fabricio

Anonymous said...

Marion for Chandler would be great for the Suns and the NBA (Marion's alley-oop dunks wouldn't be lost seeing as he'd have Paul as his pointman). As the previous poster mentioned the Suns would gain in an area so much from Chandler's presence; strong interior defense, great rebounding, and they wouldn't have to worry about finding more shots seeing as Chandler is a "hardhat guy."

This is purely masturbatory at this point but wow, what a lineup that'd be:

C-Chandler/Skinner
PF-Stoudemire
SF-Hill/Diaw (I still think Diaw can return to the triple double frontcourt player he was only two years ago)
SG-Bell/Barbosa
PG-Nash/Banks (If Banks can morph into a Lindsey Hunter-esque bench guard I'd be ecstatic)

The problem with this scenarior is there are too many "ifs".

I knew the trading of Kurt Thomas would hurt the Suns immediately and long-term ad it's showing up now.

Anonymous said...

Trade Marion for Gerald Wallace or David Lee... In Wallace you get all of the tools pulls the man can score of his own dribble something Marion can't or with Lee you get a great rebounder/defender who gets dirty down low...

Anonymous said...

The one deal i can think of that would work and does work on the trade machine and logically, is to trade Shawn to Seattle for either one of Collison or Wilcox (preferably wilcox cos i feel he can run the court better and adds that explosive dunking, but collison would know his role and be the dirty player) and Wally Sczczerbiak. in this trade we get a big rebounding defender. either one can do it, plus they can both defend and also a decent size shooter who can fill in at the SG/SF spots and spread the floor. if you wanna play quick ball play hill at the 4 with wally at the 3 and bell barbosa the 2. also if they dont wanna do a straight up swap add swap atlantas draft pick this year for our one back. or even just put in the atlanta one if they still dont bite.

its a win for all. seattle can play a team of PG (either one of watson, wilkins or ridnour who would probably love having marion to tak his passes.) durant at the 2 jeff green at the 3 marion 4 and wilcox/collison 5. they keep with the rebuilding by getting a possible lottery draft pick and marion can help guide the team and teach duratn and green about defence and what not.

the suns get a big rebounding body and a 3-point shooter to spread the floor. a win win.

Anonymous said...

Hope Joe Dumars gets a concussion and offers to trade Rasheed Wallace.

1) He can guard Tim Duncan 1:1, and hold him to 20:10 instead of 30:15
1a) He visibly frustrates the hell out of Duncan
2) He can guard Cs and PFs, and can cover SFs and guards on the pick and roll.
3) He plays defense
4) He can hit the 3 and will score and rebound as much as Marion
5) He has no interest in being the alpha dog and is happy blending in with the team concept

He's moody as hell, but Marion's not?

The problem is that the Pistons have no use for Marion.

Anonymous said...

Heh, its done. Marion for Shaq.

 
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